Nomenclature of Lenses

[Extiger]

I am new to MF systems, so I don't understand the labels and names.

I bought a system with only a 150mm Tessar. Silver. So I am looking ebay and CL for two good lenses used. A 50mm, and an 80mm. But I find advertisements for MF lenses made by Zeiss and by Hasselblad.

a) are these manufactured by the same company?

b) if there is a difference, which will likely be better and thus more expensive?

c) are the older Zeiss lenses called "C", and the newer ones "CF" or "CFI"?

d) old Zeiss lenses are silver, newer ones black?

e) black lenses are better to handle and usually take a smaller diameter
filter? Yes/no

Thanks for your help educating me.

Gary Curtis
California

 

[Victorh]

It is highly unlikely that you have a silver 150 Tessar lens.
It is probably a Sonnar.


This may help you to get some idea of what lenses Carl Zeiss has produced for Hasselblad.
With the exception of the 140-280 zoomlens all lenses for the 500 series were produced by Carl Zeiss.

The first generation lenses for the 500 series Hasselblad cameras were called "C" lenses after the name of the shutter : Compur.
The first C lenses were produced in 1956 a year before the 500C camera became available.
Starting in 1971 C lenses received an improved 6 layer coating called T*
All lenses are subcequently T* coated except superachromat versions.

C lenses were superceded by CF lenses in 1982 and later for some focal lengths.
The shutter was replaced by a Prontor one.
The F indicates these lenses can also be used with 200 series bodies that have a focal plane shutter.
To accomodate full functions of these cameras the Prontor shutter is not used when the lens is set to "F"
The lens stays open to allow viewing of the subject immediately after the picture is taken.
Winding the camera is not necessary. This is similar to any 35 mm SLR camera.

The CF series was improved in 1998.
Improved lenses were known as CFi models.
Improvements were: better anti reflection coating, different helicoid, better PC for flash or digital back and a new type mainspring to improve already very good reliability.

Some improved lenses also received data bus contacts for cameras of the 200 series that have built in light metering systems.
These lenses were known as CFE models.
Of course CFE lenses also function on 500 series bodies without the light measuring system.
Technically for 500 series bodies CFE and CFi lenses are the same.

To complicate matters some lenses are available now used as CF, CFE and CFi versions.

The 80 mm started life as a CF lens changed in 1998 into a CFE model and is now available as CFi lens.
Similar things happened to the 120 Makro Planar lens:
The lens started as CF changed over to CFi became a CFE and is now again available as CFi lens.
All CFE versions were dropped because the 200 series cameras were phased out in 2004.

For a user of a 500 series body there is no difference between a CFE or a CFi version.
Keep in mind the CF version is older and does not have the later improvements.
Still the CF is a very good lens.
The helicoid of the later lenses is ergonomically better although not everybody agrees on this.

Carl Zeiss also made an economy version of certain lenses.
These lenses are called CB and were available in four different focal lenghts: 60/80/120/160 mm.
Economy version as in 1700 euro against 1950 euro for the 80 mm lens.
Not a big difference and certainly not big enough to persuade buyers to buy CB lenses.
Production and supply of CB lenses stopped after a couple of years.


source: hasselbladinfo forum


In general C series lenses use B50 filters.
Some C lenses have inlay filters locked by a ring or the shade.

Most CF lenses have B60 filter size.

Keep in mind 40 mm lenses and tele lenses have different size filters regardless whether they are from the C series or later models.


Vic.

 

[Extiger]

I printed out that lens classification table. Thanks. Where on this forum does a person find such documentation?

Is there a library?

I was looking at eBay just now. What are the many 80mm biometar lenses offered for sale?

And why, when prices cluster around the $400-550 range, are the same focal lengths selling for $1300? Previously owned by Elvis?

Gary

 

[Victorh]

What the lens survey does not tell you is that even the oldest C lenses with early coating still give excellent results after more than 35 years of use.
It will be hard if not impossible to distinguish images made with older lenses from images made with the latest versions.

Biometar lenses are from the former east German plant of Zeiss in Jena.
They do not fit Hasselblad cameras.
These lenses were meant for east German made Pentacon cameras.

After WWII the Zeiss company fell apart in a western and eastern part.
Many years of costly trials ended in an agreement about the use of the name Zeiss and certain names for lenses.
Carl Zeiss Oberkochen, the western part of Zeiss, even had to give lenses to certain export destinations different names.
These lenses often carry the Opton name.




Rare 250F4 lens for 1600F and 1000F Hasselblad bodies.
This lens carries the Opton name.


It is a free world, some sellers offer items for grossly inflated prices.
Keep in mind older lenses that have been serviced to Hasselblad standards do not come cheap.
Parts are expensive, so is labor by trained qualified technicians.
It takes some experience to buy successfully at auction sites.




Vic.

 

[Extiger]

Again, thanks for your advice. Can I ask again, was the source of that lens classification table here on this forum?

What you say about the quality of older coating on lenses makes sense. I shot more than my share of 35mm film at 40,000 feet altitude through the front windows of 747s and DC-10s. If glare and light scattering would have been an issue with my 1970's-vintage Nikon equipment, I would have seen it.

The aficionados of the CF lenses with T* coating haven't won me over entirely. Not for double the price. When I was a foreign correspondent in Tokyo in 68 & 69 we learned from technicians at the Tokyo factory that all the Japanese camera makers were standing on their heads to learn the glass-making and coating tricks of Leits/Leica.

About 1970 or thereabouts, they had achieved it. Fluoride glass, and green coating (again with fluoride, I think). The glass yielded better resolution because it focused most colors of the spectrum equally. But the coating, was a marginal improvement.

I am attracted by the ergonomics on the CFs. Specifically, the independent rotation of F-stop and shutter speed rings. And the softer edges of the rings themselves. We just bought a car, after looking at 12 competing models (yes, a woman was involved -- Mrs. Fussy, my wife). Our choice of the Infinity was based on ergonomics.

In shops here in California, and on eBay postings, I sometimes see the little "fast-focusing" lever arm on lenses. Gimmick, or must have item?
Particularly on older lenses?

My apology for not responding to your ealier comment ---- yes, you were right! My 150 mm lens (silver) is a Sonnar, not a Tessar.

Pardon my rambling.

Gary

 

[Victorh]

Hello Gary,


The lens story is one I wrote long time ago.
The search function of the forum sucks due to lack of discipline.
This forum is all about fun and free posting, no policeman here to control traffic.
The search function needs to have every title of a new post filled out completely otherwise it does not work.
Another complication is it needs a minimum of four digits to make a selection possible.
With C, CF, CFi and CFE as parameters this does not work either.


All CF lenses have T* but keep in mind T* started earlier with certain silver lenses from the C series.
Long before WWII Zeiss new all about coating but simply decided it was not important enough to apply that technique to lenses.
Untill certain Japanese manufacturers started to use multi coated glass Zeiss did not even consider offering this to their clients like Hasselblad.

Nice to read your experience with coating in Japan.
Coating helps to increase contrast, something Japanese designers like very much.
One of the reasons I dislike typical Japanese made lenses.

Without doubt ergonomics of the CF series and later lenses will be an important factor for you.
Independent selection of shutterspeed and aperture is just one of them.

The quick focussing lever was mostly used with C series lenses.
Quite often it was to compensate for a stiff helicoid.
Helicoids need to be serviced from time to time because the grease becomes hard and makes focussing difficult.
Some sellers offer a QFL to compensate for that.
A well kept and regularly serviced C lens is a delight to use.
Turning the focussing ring is as easy as cutting through butter with a warm knife.

Have fun and enjoy the new car!



Vic.

 

[Extiger]

About the Japanese factory. It was Nikon. We bought black-body Nikon FTn bodies for $106. I still remember that.

We were given special treatment as end users. Why? Our news company had 4000 employees, and a large photographic staff. Many of them preferred to use a Leica for WA work, and Nikons for the rest. For formal group shots they used Hasselblad or Linhof Teknica, not the view camera.

The technicians at Nikon explained to us one day how the German optics got so good. The glass formula, for one. Coupled with the quality control standards. They said Leitz would take test pictures through 6 identical lenses. The one with the best resolution was sold, the rest were destroyed.

The Nikon guy then said, almost with tears in his eyes, "Here we test lenses after manufacture. The best goes to one of the Nikon pro field offices and are made available on a loan basis to famoust photographers or to companies like LIFE Magazine. Or to a wider group for events such as the Olympics. All so that superior photos giving credit to the camera/film/photographer would be viewed on the pages of Nat. Geo. To entice sales.

The bulk of the remaining lenses off the assembly line were distributed through normal sales channels. And the rejects would be shunted over to another division in Nikon to make binoculars, spotting scopes and astronomical telescopes. He was deeply embarassed admitting this.

After WW II, General McArthur brought over specialists to rebuild the Japanese nation. One of them was W. Edwards Deming, the father of QC.
The Japanese learned Demings mantras well, and even bestow an annual Demings Quality award to a Japanese company.

At times, though, the pressure to make a profit trumps all.

Gary

 

[Extiger]

Here's an added item on coated lenses.

In 1998 I interviewed Janusz Kaminski, the director of photography for many of the Steven Spielberg films. He won Oscars for Schindler's List and (I think) Saving Private Ryan. In '98 Saving Private Ryan was just released and I was writing for Chapman Leonard, the big manufacturer of camera gear (cranes, dollys, booms). Spielberg always uses their equipment.

Kaminski told me that he always thought the jerky, hand-held effect of WW -II combat and news footage conveyed an air of authenticity and tension. On Schindler's List set, he was on the sidelines, out of view of the camera, and for his own benefit, making home movies with an old Bell & Howell 16mm camera. This was the scene of the rail depot at Auschwitz. Spielberg, behind the shooting camera, saw this and during a break asked Janusz what he was doing.

Spielberg was intrigued at what he heard and saw, and from that day on, incorporated a lot of hand-held photography in that film.

On Saving Private Ryan, Kaminski had free reign and decided to use about 12 hand-held camera men wearing waders in the water for the landing scene at Omaha Beach. But more importantly, all the big cameras used special uncoated optics. Giving the film a harsh, unfinished, contrasty look. The opening and closing scene at the cemetary at Colleville sur Mer (Omaha) have long, languid shots of an American flag. Which looks almost over exposed or bleached-out because of the lens.

Spielberg wanted to project an ambience of waste or fruitlessness instead of patriotic glory. War is tragic, he wanted to say. Straight from the lips of a maestro.

Gary

 

[Victorh]

For many older guys strong back lit scenes with lots of lens flare gives film a kind of authenticity like a documentary.

I suppose you are hinting on that effect for scenes with handheld cameras as used in the film Saving private Ryan.

That film made a strong impression on me.
I do not remember whether this had anything to do with camera operation or the script.
About time to take another look at that film.


Vic.

 

[Extiger]

Yeah, those were subtlies probably lost on the average guy. But what Janusz Kaminski told me, all the principle camera lenses were uncoated, not just the hand-held ones.

And, yes, the story line was somewhat pedestrian. The idea was taken from that letter written by Abraham Lincoln to a mother in Boston grieving over her five lost sons in the Civil War. And from the incident of the 4 Sullivan Brothers lost on a single ship in WW-II. A movie has to have a story with a compelling motive in it.

For awhile, after I did that interview, I followed the blogs on IMDB.com about Saving Private Ryan. Even German audiences found the movie to be sensitive and honest. The French, uncharacteristically, cheered. Kaminski told me he went to a French screening of the movie together with Spielberg and Tom Hanks. At the conclusion of the screening, the lights in the house went up, the crowd turned to face the filmakers and applauded for a long while. Many with tears in their eyes. Spielberg whispered "Enjoy this. This doesn't often happen."

Most veterans, however, are mute about D-Day. The horror of it overwhelmed them.

Gary

 

[Victorh]

I saw the film about the Sullivan brothers over fourty years ago.
The scene where the mother of those men looked out her kitchen window seeing an official government car approach the house is still clear in my mind.

Strange what impact images can have on people.


Vic.

 

[Extiger]

You might recall that the entire scene ... going from her nervously glancing out the kitchen window while washing dishes, through to the point where the Army vehicle drives up and a priest gets out.... to where she collapses. The entire episode is without words.

Joshua Logan made an equal achievement in the opening scene of Mr. Roberts. With no dialogue. In this case, Mr. Roberts wants to get in the war, not stay out of it. For several dramatic moments (with no dialogue) hundreds of combat ships parade past on the screen. Mr. Roberts watches, and when the last ship is over the horizon, Henry Fonda sets aside his binoculars and struts up a ladder to a potted palm tree. The tree is an award presented to the captain for hauling lots of cargo. Fonda is imprisoned on the cargo ship and wants off. Fonda salutes the tree and then ceremoniously throws it overboard. Setting in motion the conflict that is the substance of the movie.

That is the job of a director: to speak volumes through images alone. No words. Movies or still, success lies in this ability.

This is telling my age, but I can recall as a toddler in WW-II asking my mother about those pendant flags with the stars on them. I believe they were black in color, and then replaced with a gold star for a relative who died in combat.

Gary