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CCD vs CMOS Sensor, 14 bit vs 16 bit

saad

Member
Has anyone wondered what the visual differences are between these two types of sensors? Up to now I have not seen any photographic evidence of how they differ. Will we clearly see the difference?

I am trying to compare the CFV39 with the Nikon D3x which is not a camera to take lightly. If someone has an image that can show this difference, I would love to see it.

Maybe Paul, Brad or Marc know something?
 
I'll try to keep my answer as practical (non-techy) as I can...

CCD vs. CMOS
In real-world terms, differences you see between CMOS and CCD sensors will be influenced much more by other factors (primarily default color choices made by the software for your camera) than by the fact that the sensor is CMOS or CCD.

There will be differences between these two technologies, to be sure, but you are unlikely to be able to look at a photograph and tell, visually.

14 vs 16-bit
This is the part of the chip (CMOS or CCD) which takes the analog voltage from the sensels and turns it into a digital signal. The sensel collects light much like a bucket left outside collects rainwater. If you pick it up after the rain storm, the bucket's weight will be more, the more water it collected. Similarly, after the exposure, the sensel will deliver more voltage the more light it collected.

The sensel will have a minimum (no light) and a maximum (full saturation) voltage it can put out. This voltage will be converted into a digital signal, with the range being represented by either 14 bits (Nikon) or 16 bits (CFV).

In English, that means the entire range of possibilities the sensel can record (from minimum to maximum) will be broken into 16384 different possible steps (Nikon) or 65536 possible steps (CFV).

Note that this does not mean that 16-bit sensor automatically has more dynamic range (as is often touted in forums), it means that the 16-bit sensor has four times the fidelity (or precision) of the 14-bit sensor. You can think of it this way: Dynamic range is a function of how much rainwater the bucket can hold, not about how sensitive the scale is at measuring the bucket.

Ok, so 16 thousand tonal values or 65 thousand tonal values--either sounds like a lot. I suspect you are wondering if the difference is visible in real-world photographs?

The answer is yes, under certain circumstances. You will tend to see smoother shadow transitions, without as much 'banding', particularly if you accidentally under-exposed the image and are fixing it in post.

Nikon D3X vs. CFV
And your final question--these are difficult to compare unless you bring their respective optics into play. And once you've done that, for the most part, the Nikon will not stack up well against the CFV because of the generally superior optics on the Hasselblad (note that the Nikon telephoto offerings are comparable). This is probably the biggest single factor influencing the 'look' of pictures from a given camera.

Second, sensel pitch (physical size) of 5.94 for the Nikon vs. 6.8 for the Hasselblad CFV-39 and 9 (!) for the CFV-16 makes demands of the lenses that put it at another disadvantage. (Smaller is a disadvantage.) Still, Nikon has done admirably here, offering exceptional dynamic range -- particularly for a small format camera -- that arguably rivals medium format (at least according to some measurements).

In addition to image quality, the price, convenience, weight, battery life, size, ergonomics and other features will play a big role, and being, subjective will factor more or less depending on the individual photographer's situation.

In the end, both systems will take some fantastic photographs with the right glass in front of it, so it's a matter of which tool best meets your needs.

-Brad

P.S. Just for the sake of completeness: Throughout this I've implied that sensors turn light directly into voltage. This isn't technically true--they turn light into charge, and that charge is turned into voltage. This detail wasn't relevant to the points I was making so I skipped over it.
 
Wow Brad, you are so cool, thank you. Since you made such an effort to explain this, I started analyzing some pictures I had taken with the D3x via an adapter to the same lens CF135 with bellows and took snap shots of a flower using flash, what I see now is that the CFV39 has definitely a better ability in showing more shades of the same color. I know this is what it is suppose to do, but to see it side by side in a photograph is something that I just managed to do.

I will be glad to send you the raw files if you want.

Thanks again for your time.
 
Brad, which lens or Nikon telephotos are referring to when you say in your post that some are on par with the Hassy lenses. I am in the process of selling off my Canon Gear. I am just starting to list the bodies but I have not sold off any of my glass yet. I am considering a Nikon D700 because of the focus system, lens adjustment, metering, frames per second, and build quality it offers me at a reasonable price level. I also am very concerned with the quality control currently at Canon.

I did look at the 5DII but the focus system and build quality is just not there for me. Of course the new 1D has been announced but after purchasing a 1D and 1DMKII in the past, I really do not want to put that many dollars into a body again and take the loss that comes with it.

I do understand the concept of larger Pixel Pitch. So before I sell of my Canon L glass and make the full commitment to go Nikon I would like to know what lenses you feel compare to some of the Hassy glass. At least I know I am going to get a 5 year warranty on Nikon Glass vs the 1 year Canon offers.

Thanks,

Jason
 
Thanks, Saad! I'm glad this was helpful!

Hi, Jason, sorry for the long delay. Truth be told, I have sold my Hasselblad kit and returned to small format. After buying 6 different digital medium format systems over three years, I felt I had done everything I could make it work for me, but medium format it seems, isn't quite what I was looking for as my sole system. Still, I hope others will not let that discourage them, as my needs are my own, and medium format still makes a lot of sense for many applications.

With that being said, using the correct (and more demanding) shooting technique required, and the very best lenses, I have found that from ~35mm-180mm, medium format offers consistently superior optics. Examples? Zeiss Distagon T* 35mm f3.5 for Contax, Zeiss Distagon T* CFE 40/4 IF for Hasselblad, Schneider Super-Angulon 40/3.5 PQ HFT for Rollei, the Schneider Curtagon 60mm for Rollei, the Schneider 90mm Macro for Rollei, the Zeiss 110/2 for Hasselblad & Rollei, the Zeiss APO Makro 120/4 for Contax, followed by the Zeiss 120 for Hasselblad, the Zeiss 180/4 for Hasselblad, the Schneider 180/2.8 for Rollei, and anything with SuperAchromat in the name for Hasselblad.

There are individual exceptions where 35mm rivals MF in this range, but in general I've found it to be fairly rare. Once you get to 28mm and below, in my opinion the medium format offerings fall behind the best of the small format lenses (which is understandable given the huge image circles required). For 200mm or above, I've found that medium format offers incredible optics (such as Zeiss Tele-Superachromats), but I have found that the technique required to use them to their potential makes them impractical. Note that the CaFl elements grown by Canon (their Fluorite glass) allows them to bring many different wavelengths of light into focus in the same plane--essentially the same technology as the Superachromats. I do not know what Nikon uses for their anomalous dispersion elements, but, by reputation, at least, Nikon super-teles are said to be comparable in image quality.

I would have to say that even the best of small format does not compare to Hasselblad's legendary V-series build quality. Be prepared do deal with "good enough" construction practices, plastic, er excuse me, "polycarbonate" barrels, and by far the most important to my mind--lower levels of quality control leading to greater sample variation in the product (e.g. "My copy's great!" "My copy sucks!").

I am more familiar with Canon's lineup of lenses, but to answer your question, if you were looking for Nikon lenses that rival medium format, I would take a look at the 200mm f/2, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8 500mm f/4 and 600mm f/4 lenses and see if they don't wow you--I suspect they wil. (Hopefully you have applications for which these lenses are well suited!) Combined with their VR to make accessing their potential practical (damping mirror and shutter vibration) I would argue these lenses are generally superior to medium format offerings, in practice.

One of the exceptions in the 35-180 range where small format rivals medium format offerings--Canon's newest 100L macro would also go into this category as well.

I have a new 24mm II tilt-shift sitting on my counter that just arrived minutes ago. It's supposed to be the best of the best in small format wide angle, but, from my research, the Zeiss CFE 40/4 IF (FOV of a 28mm with a CFV-39) is still superior--it is noticeably sharper (acutance), more contrasty, and has lower CA. (The Zeiss suffers from rather severe optical distortion, but this, like many artifacts is correctable.)

If you are moving systems, I think Nikon's bodies are the bees' knees at the moment. This pendulum swings back and forth every few years, and I think is very healthy for the photographic community at large (medium format included). Lenses, though, are for keeps--relatively longer term investments, and, collectively, usually a relatively larger investment. Unfortunately, Nikon hasn't been as aggressive in recent years at updating their lenses for hi-res digital--Canon would never admit that is what they are doing (I'm sure they'd say that "all their lenses are fine for hi-res digital"), but IMHO, that is exactly what they are (and should be) doing--particularly the primes. This is why I'm moving to Canon (1Ds IV, and "putting up with" the 5D II for now), rather than to the superb and most excellent D3X.

Since I believe it's all about the glass, my recommendation would be to go with whatever system (small format or otherwise) which has the glass you need; the bodies will be along in relatively short order.

I don't know enough about the Nikon glass below 200mm to comment about any superlative glass, but I have to believe some exists. Take a look at SLRGear.com for good analysis of the real-world performance of some lenses. You can even compare across brands so you can see if your 50/1.2 fails to impress equally on the other platform (in case you're wondering, yes, it does). :)

Take care, Jason,
-Brad
 
Hello Brad,

I was aware you made the decision to go back to a 35 mm based DSLR system.
This post once again shows we will miss you dearly at hasselbladinfo forum.
You have a lot of first hand experience that is essential for forums.

Do not forget this forum and of course feel free to post here as you did before.


Paul
 
This community is absolutely wonderful. Rather than putting people down for not choosing the same gear, this group supports one another both on and off the board like I have experienced nowhere else.

I think you can be proud of the community you have created here, Paul--and don't worry--you'll have to bar the doors to keep me from popping back in! ;)

I'm happy to continue to provide something of value to this community, if I can.

All the best,
-Brad
 
Wow Brad, you are so cool, thank you. Since you made such an effort to explain this, I started analyzing some pictures I had taken with the D3x via an adapter to the same lens CF135 with bellows and took snap shots of a flower using flash, what I see now is that the CFV39 has definitely a better ability in showing more shades of the same color. I know this is what it is suppose to do, but to see it side by side in a photograph is something that I just managed to do.

I will be glad to send you the raw files if you want.

Thanks again for your time.

Exactly--By the way, Saad, I took a shot recently with my 5D II of a beautiful sunset over the Pacific with sunbeams raining down on the water. The sky was partly cloudy and is all done in high-key. Sadly the 5D II's 14-bits weren't quite up to the task. I didn't have it with me, but my CFV-39 would not have given me the color cast and banding artifacts that I saw in the subtle tones in the 5D II's sky.

What I got is completely fixable, and many wouldn't even notice, but there's definitely a difference--16 would be really nice to have.
 
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